It can look dumb, but I always had this question as a kid, what physical principles would prevent this?
It would work, but only in the impossible world where you have a perfectly rigid unbreakable stick. But such an object cannot exist in this universe.
Pick up a solid rigid object near you. Anything will do, a coffee cup, a comb, a water bottle, anything. Pick it up from the top and lift it vertically. Observe it.
It seems as though the whole object moves instantaneously, does it not? It seems that the bottom of the object starts moving at the exact same instant as the top. But it is actually not the case. Every material has a certain elasticity to it. Everything deforms slightly under the tiniest of forces. Even a solid titanium rod deforms a little bit from the weight of a feather placed upon it. And this lack of perfect rigidity means that there is a very, very slight delay from when you start lifting the top of the object to when the bottom of it starts moving.
For small objects that you can manipulate with your hands, this delay is imperceptible to your senses. But if you observed an object being lifted with very precise scientific equipment, you could actually measure this delay. Motion can only transfer through objects at a finite speed. Specifically, it can only move at the speed of sound through the material. Your perfectly rigid object would have an infinite speed of sound within it. So yes, it would instantly transfer that motion. But with any real material, the delay wouldn’t just be noticeable, but comically large.
Imagine this stick were made of steel. The speed of sound in steel is about 5120 m/s. The distance to the Moon is about 400,000 km. Converting and dividing shows that it would actually take about 22 hours for a pulse like that to travel through a steel pole that long. (Ignoring how the steel pole would be supported.)
So in fact, you are both right and wrong. You are correct for the object you describe. A perfectly rigid object would be usable as a tool of FTL communication. But such an object simply cannot exist in this universe.
that makes sense, i forgot that pushing something is basically like creating a sound wave on it ^^’ thank you :)
A perfectly rigid object would be usable as a tool of FTL communication
Would it though? I feel like the theoretical limit is still c
What about using c++ or rust?
Yes, the speed of sound in an object is how fast neighboring atoms can react to each other, and not only is that information (therefore limited to C already) but specifically it’s the electric field caused by the electrons that keep atoms certain distances from each other and push each other around. And changes in the electric/magnetic fields are famously carried by photons (light) specifically - so even in bulk those changes move at the speed of light at most
It’s even wilder when you take the concept of ridgidity and transfer of energy out of the equation and just think in terms of pure information propagating though a light cone. Rigidity itself is a function of information.
Username checks out.
As an object becomes “closer” to a perfectly rigid object it becomes denser, would such an object eventually collapse onto itself and become a black hole? Or is there another limit to how dense/rigid an object can be?
Seems likely. The most rigid materially known, (or at least theorized) is nuclear pasta.. Nuclear pasta only forms inside neutron stars, stellar objects that are the last stage of matter before matter gives up entirely and collapses into a black hole.
When you push something you push the atoms in the thing. This in turn pushes the adjacent atoms, when push the adjacent atoms all the way down the line. Very much like pushing water in the bathtub, it ripples down the line. The speed at which atoms propogate this ripple is the speed of sound. In air this is roughly 700mph, but as the substance gets harder* it gets faster. For example, aluminum and steel it is about 11,000mph. That’s why there’s a movie trope about putting your ear to the railroad line to hear the train.
If you are talking about something magically hard then I suppose the speed of sound in that material could approach the speed of light, but still not surpass it. Nothing with mass may travel the speed of light, not even an electron, let alone nuclei.
*generalizing
Best answer
The compression on the end of the stick wouldn’t travel faster than the speed of sound in the stick making it MUCH slower than light.
But… But… The stick is unfoldable!
So I found a dowel rod online that’s 1 meter long by 25 mm in diameter made of beech, which is pretty typical for this kind of rod. Each rod weighs 420 g. 300,000 km is 300,000,000 m. So for a dowel rod to be 300,000,000 m long, it would weigh 126,000,000,000 g, or 126,000,000 kg. You would never be able to push this rod. If you had a magical hydraulic ram that could, it would just compress the soil under it. This is on the scale of the foce released from an atomic bomb.
But let’s throw that out and pretend the whole thing weighs 420 grams instead. Maybe it’s made of a novel, space-age material instead of beech. And since you’ve said it can’t bend or break, the portion at the surface of the earth would be spinning at roughly 1,000 kph (due to the rotation of the earth), and the portion at the end of the rod would be spinning at about 28 km/s. Most of the mass of the rod would be spinning faster than escape velocity, so you wouldn’t be able to hold onto it. It would be gone almost instantly.
Let’s pretend you could hold onto it. Then the person on the moon couldn’t hold it, because the earth rotates on its axis about 28 times faster than the moon travels around its orbit. So you can see how this problem devolves into ever more layers of magic and hand-waiving.
The final problem is the fundamental difference between classroom physics and material engineering. If you could fix the moon to the end of the rod, and you used a space-age material that weighs 420 g for the whole thing, and it could be so rigid as to not bend, then it would have to break instead. If, instead, it’s designed to not break, then it must be able to bend. This is just how real materials work. But even if it does neither, or at most only bends a little, it is still true that as you push on the rod it would compress. So the tip wouldn’t move at first. The pressure would move through the rod like a wave. You can’t send information faster than light.
Excellent write up.Yes, about my setting, it was pretty much an excuse to illustrate the experiment, with like you said, a bit too much of magic.
The moon being on a straight distance of approximately 1 light second, i didn’t had found another place to put this experiment on. So I didn’t take into account the herculean strengh needed, the movement of the earth and the moon and the gravity.
Someone gave a link to an answer of my question, with a more realistic take on the position of the other end, but your explanations are still welcome for this moon setting and the “moon elevator” problem :)
(i know i may have broken english sometimes, sorry about that)
(i know i may have broken english sometimes, sorry about that)
Not at all! I couldn’t tell you aren’t a native speaker. Regarding a “moon elevator”, or more realistically a space elevator, these kinds of Herculean physics problems are exactly what people are trying to iron out. The forces involved are astronomical.
Yeah IIRC that even applies to things like gravity as well. As in, we aren’t actually orbiting around where is sun is, we’re orbiting around where it was ~8 minutes ago because the sun is about 8 light-minutes from Earth.
No, gravity is faster than light. If there was this lag, we wouldn’t have stable orbits exactly because of the lag you describe. Wave functions of photons also collapse faster than light when they hit absorbent material.
That was excellent. Thank you
Because the stick isn’t infinitely rigid. If you push it at one end the other end doesn’t immediately start moving. The time it takes, I think, is equal to the speed of sound inside that material. Ultimately the forces that bind atoms together and allow them to interact are limited by the speed of light.
I ran this by an engineer and they said the same thing
Huh…so we may fail to achieve faster than light (FTL) travel but we could probably manage faster than stick (FTS) travel
Easily. I imagine that most spacecraft are already traveling faster than the speed of stick. It’s likely only a few thousand meters per second
There’s a thought experiment about this in most intro classes on relativity, talking about “length compression”. To a stationary observer a fast-moving object appears shorter in its direction of travel. For example, at about 87% of the speed of light, length compression is about 50%. If you are interested in the formula look up Relativistic Length Compression. Anyway, if you are carrying a pole 20 meters long and you run past someone at that speed, to them the pole will only look 10 meters long.
In the thought experiment you run with this pole into a barn that’s only 10 meters long. What happens?
The observer, seeing you bringing a 10-meter pole into a 10-meter barn, shuts the door behind you, closing it exactly at the point where you’re entirely in the barn. What happens when you stop, and how does a 20-meter pole fit in a 10-meter barn in the first place?
First, when the pole gets in the barn and the door closes, the pole is no longer moving, so now to the observer it looks 20 meters long. As its speed drops to zero the pole appears to get longer, becoming 20 meters again. It either punches holes in the barn and sticks out, or it shatters if the barn is stronger.
Looking at the situation from the runner’s point of view, since motion is relative you could say you’re stationary and the barn is moving toward you at 87% of the speed of light. So to you the 10-meter barn only looks 5 meters long. So how does a 20-meter pole fit in?
The answer to both questions is compression - or saying it another way, information doesn’t travel instantly. When the front end of the pole hits the inside of the barn and stops, it takes some time for that information to travel through the pole to the other end. Meanwhile, the rest of the pole keeps moving. By the time the back end knows it’s supposed to stop, from the runner’s point of view the 20-ft pole has been compressed down to 5 meters. From the runner’s point of view the barn then stops moving, so it’s length returns to 10 meters, but since the pole still won’t fit it either punches holes in the barn or shatters.
One of my physics profs had double-majored in theatre, and loved to perform this demo with a telescoping pole and a cardboard barn.
but since the pole still won’t fit it either punches holes in the barn or shatters.
Latest research is suggesting that the observer from the pole’s perspective sees the far door open before the near door, basically reversing the order of events. (Assuming the barn doors close briefly around to contain the pole, and then open again to let it through. The Barn sees the entire pole momentarily inside the barn with both doors closed, the pole sees itself enter the short barn, the far door closes briefly and then opens letting the front of the pole through, then the back door closes and opens as it passes through. IE: order of events can be recorded differently for each observer without breaking causality.)
The motion of the stick will actually only propagate to the other end at the speed of sound in the material the stick is made of.
So when you pull on the stick and it doesnt immediately get pulled back on the other side, you are, at that instant, creating more stick?
You’re not creating more stick, but you’re making the stick longer. The pressure wave in the stick will travel at the speed of sound in the stick which will be faster than sound in air, but orders of magnitude slower than light.
Everything has some elasticity. Rigidity is an illusion . Things that feel rigid to us are rigid in human terms only.
I get it. Elasticity isn’t something you think about in the every day so it all seems rigid.
Exactly. At the atomic level solid matter acts a lot like jello. It also helps explain why things tend to break if you push or pull on them at rates that exceed the speed of sound in that material.
It would stretch like a rubber band stretches just a lot less. Wood, metal, whatever is slightly flexible. The stick would either get slightly thinner or slightly less dense as you pulled it. Also, you won’t be able to pull it much because there’s so much stick.
You know what’s more crazy. Electrons don’t flow at the speed of light through a wire. Current is like Newtons Cradle, you push one electron in on one side and another bounces out on the other side, that happens at almost light speed. But individual electrons only travel at roughly 1cm per second trough a wire.
You are slightly and temporarily increasing the spacing between atoms/compounds in the stick. This spacing will effectively travel like a shockwave of “pull” down the stick.
The stick would only move at the speed of sound. Or the speed the molecules can push against each other, which is the speed of sound in that material.
Even if it were perfectly rigid, supernaturally so, your push would still only transmit through the stick at the speed of light. The speed of light is the speed of time.
The push would travel at the speed of sound in the stick, much slower than the speed of light
In a “perfectly rigid” stick (a fictional invention), the speed of sound is the speed of light.
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Sound is air vibration
Sound is not exclusive to air, it can be generalized to vibrations in any media. Whale song and dolphin echolocation are certainly sounds, and we’re almost always talking about them propagating in water rather than air.
which has to travel from one place to the next
No, that isn’t how sound works. In air this would be a description of wind, not sound.
just transfer kinetic energy to the adjacenct atom
This is actually a good description of how sound waves propagate.
Even if the stick were made of the hardest known material, the information would take about 7 hours to travel from Earth to the Moon, according to the equation relating Young’s modulus and the material’s density.
Also, even if you could somehow pull the stick, Newton’s Second Law (F = ma) tells us that the force required to move it depends on its mass and desired acceleration. If the stick were made of steel with a 1 cm radius, it would have a mass of approximately 754×10^6kg due to its enormous length. Now, if you tried to give it just a tiny acceleration of 0.01 m/s² (barely noticeable movement), the required force would be:
F = (754×10^6) × (0.01) = 7.54×10^6 N
That’s 7.54 MN, equivalent to the thrust of a Saturn V rocket, just to make it move at all! And that’s not even considering internal stresses, gravity differences, or the fact that the force wouldn’t propagate instantly through the stick.
There’s no such thing as a perfectly rigid object.
Perhaps also worth pointing out that the speed of light is that exact speed, because light itself hits a speed limit.
As far as we know, light has no mass, so if it is accelerated in any way, it should immediately have infinite acceleration and therefore infinite speed (this is simplifying too much by using a classical physics formula, but basically it’s like this:
a = f/m = f/0 = ∞). And well, light doesn’t go at infinite speed, presumably because it hits that speed limit, which is somehow inherent to the universe.That speed limit is referred to as the “speed of causality” and we assume it to apply to everything. That’s also why other massless things happen to travel at the speed of causality/light, too, like for example gravitational waves. Well, and it would definitely also apply to that pole.
Here’s a video of someone going into much more depth on this: https://www.pbs.org/video/pbs-space-time-speed-light-not-about-light/
I think relativity demonstrates that light does have mass?
They might not have “rest mass” but they do have mass!
The eclipse experiment proved it, solar sails whilst hypothetical demonstrate it.
Photons don’t have mass, but they do have momentum.
How does that work?
Matter is made of atoms. Things are only truly rigid in the small scales we deal with usually.
I’m not a scientist, but when I asked the same question before they said, “compression.”
Like, the stick would absorb the power of your push, and it would shrink (across its length) before the other end moved. When the other end does finally move, it’s actually the compression reaching it.
always had this question as a kid
And then went, draw it out, and asked.
I applaud that (and the art), good for you.(And the good people already provided answers.)
