This is true but I think there’s a point to be made about how out-of-touch both the government and the public media apparatus are with the convictions of normal people regarding many things but this issue in particular.
The entire media landscape (Both private and especially the publicly funded media) is 100% aligned with the plans and goals of the government currently. When you compare the opinion, especially on gaza, of regular people to the overton window of opinions that are platformed and reproduced in TV Talkshows, Newspapers and Online channels, I feel like there’s a huge disparity between them. I think it’s fair to say that even beyond personal anecdotal experience, the public opinion sways heavily towards supporting palestine or at least condemning israel while the media and ALL political parties (Yes also the PdL) support the zionist cause, some more blatantly and some less.
That’s not to say that the average german citizen doesn’t have some truly insane opinions on many issues but supporting the genocide perpetrated by israel does make you an outlier across the political spectrum among normal people who don’t spend their lives in elitist circles of politics or media outlets. At least that’s my impression, please do correct me if you think that’s wrong
They are brainwashed by their government but also refuse to undo that brainwashing. This comm exists because the feddit.org (German one) banned me for calling the German government Nazis for supplying weapons to a genocide. Even most of the “left” Germans who know what Israel is doing have ingrained racism so much that they are offended more by semantics than the actions of their Nazi government.
Well, nazi has a meaning and the german government is not a national socialist one; it’s a liberal democracy like many others (Not to imply that that’s a good thing). They’ve learned their lesson from WW2 and are very much opposed to the idea of a “German special path”. Instead they focus on the EU and “the west” as a whole as a global superpower. I think this is actually one of the main points of contention that the established political parties have with the AfD.
To be fair that’s probably not the reason feddit banned you when you said that. I’ve also noticed that many german online spaces are completely deranged politically and very aligned with what the government and media propagate. I don’t know if those people on reddit, feddit or some german lemmy dot world spaces are representative of regular people though; in my experience most people you meet outside who aren’t hardline state loyal liberals are quite open to critique directed at israel.
Additionally, I think “Left” is kind of a vague term because in my experience everyone and their mom identifies themselves as “left wing” or “left leaning” from the center of the CDU all the way to the PdL. If you talk to communists though you will not hear many positive words about israel.
They’ve learned their lesson from WW2 and are very much opposed to the idea of a “German special path”. Instead they focus on the EU and “the west” as a whole as a global superpower.
I uhhh don’t think that’s the lesson there was to be learned from WW2
Me neither. But that’s one of the main lessons that the government (Which I am opposed to for the record) seems to have taken away from it. When I say “This is how it is” I obviously am not saying “This is good” or “This is justified and reasonable”. I’m simply trying to describe reality as I see it. If you think my assessment is wrong then please let me hear your perspective but don’t assume that just because I describe something I must also be supportive of that thing being the way it is.
This is a simplified and in my opinion dishonest take, because the anti israel position was never on the ballot to begin with. Supporting israel is literally part of the self prescribed raison d’être of the state apparatus.
Similarly to how changing the economic modus operandi (capitalism) has never and will never be subject of a democratic vote
Yeah a self proclaimed role of raison d’être basically not a law. No politicians are forced to follow it. Also you know who vote for weapons to israel and who doesn’t , it doesn’t need to be in the ballot to not vote for those
If it isn’t on the ballot then it is impossible to vote for an alternative. If you’re saying the people simply should have abstained from the election then I can follow that logic but you have to consider the immense pressure enacted by society and the media to put your cross on the ballot next to ANY party that sort of resembles your convictions or whom you consider to be the “least bad” option (“Not voting is a vote for the afd” or “not voting is a vote for Donald Trump” in the usa are very common sentiments). It’s a little unrealistic to expect all these people to simply stay home instead of going to the polls and inevitably voting for one of the parties, all of which are pro israel without exception
Always making excuses. By voting for people backing genocide you support genocide simple as that. Vote for the minority who do not support genocide.The hyou guys always blame people instead of your politicians if the afd wins it mean that the other parties did a terrbiel job of not listening to people, morality and international law
My intention is not to “make excuses” I’m simply trying to explain what’s happening lol. I’m totally with you about abstaining or voting for an irrelevant small party if you disagree with the things offered by the big parties. Though I don’t believe that changes anything of what I said about why people voted for the big parties that tend to reach over 5% and how there’s a pressure to vote for one of those. And among those “acceptable” large political parties that we are offered, there simply is no non-zionist option.
The average voter might say something like “I don’t agree with all that stuff about israel but otherwise I believe they’re the best option and not voting just strengthens the AfD!” and that’s exactly how the system has always been supposed to work and how it’s always worked in the past. People go to the polls with clenched teeth, vote for the fuckers who they think will do the least harm KNOWING that most of their campaign promises are bullshit and that they’re just looking after themselves etc. etc. but people still do it “to prevent the worst”. I’m not trying to justify this or make excuses but is that not how things are in reality? Isn’t this something to blame on the system that’s in place rather than the people participating in it by doing their “democratic duty” of voting for one of the offered political programs every 4 years?
Edit: I think you edited your comment to add “[…]you guys always blame people instead of your politicians” and I agree with that! You initially wrote “Who voted for pro israel politician?” which I interpreted as you blaming the people who participated in the election (Since there is no major party that isn’t pro-israel). All I’ve been trying to argue is exactly that you should blame the systems and politicians instead of the people. We agree with each other!
Big parties are big because the majority of the population decided to make them big, if people decide to all vote for a small party then the small parry will be the big party. I don’t care if
Genocide is the mother of all crimes and israel is doing the worse form total extermination from the land , this should be the biggest worry and the most important thing to stop
Many population put their body in the front to stop and overthrow authoritarian regime , you have zero excuse to not try to change the system.
Big parties are big because the majority of the population decided to make them big, if people decide to all vote for a small party then the small parry will be the big party.
That’s true (Although most of these big parties were already “the big parties” when me, my parents AND my grandparents were born so it’s debatable if “the people” really decided to “make them big”), but if you make a political party that actually calls the genocide what it is and takes a principled stance on israel then you will be cancelled and targeted by an enormous media propaganda apparatus as well as the state and its law enforcement agencies. We can already see people being arrested, sanctioned, fired from their jobs and intimidated by law enforcement for simply attending the wrong protests, voicing the wrong opinions (both online and irl) or reporting on the genocide in the wrong way. There is no reason to expect this reaction to be any milder if you were to create a political party that gains momentum. Similarly to founding a party that actually genuinely demands a different mode of production (i. e. socialism). And with all this we’re not even at the point where that party is anywhere near being in government and actually having to manage this nation-state according to the myriad of systems and rules engrained in it to ensure the status quo is being kept up regardless of the personell holding office in it.
This kind of defeats your point about voting in my opinion. I am not trying to justify the governments support of israel, nor am I trying to “excuse” individuals who vote for these parties. I’m trying to tell you that solving these issues requires a critique of the system itself because there are some issues, like gaza or for example capitalism itself, which are simply not up for debate in this liberal democracy. Which brings me to the next thing you wrote:
Many population put their body in the front to stop and overthrow authoritarian regime , you have zero excuse to not try to change the system.
This is a wildly different approach compared to the discussion we’ve had here about voting for some political party in the elections. I don’t disagree with you on this
Edit: If you’re interested in a more detailled (and better articulated) critique of this democratic process and its limitations I can wholeheartedly recommend Peter Decker’s book/essay collection “Demokratie: Die perfekte Form bürgerlicher Herrschaft”. If you don’t want to read 200 pages off a stranger’s recommendation this lecture about the book is also very informative.
Well you can condemn your government and its supporters as the Nazi monsters they are and do what you can to organise to defeat them, same as the rest of us living in genocidal Western hellstates, really.
The majority of germans do not support this. But we have the worst gov currently so not much we can do.
The overwhelming majority of German parties support this
This is true but I think there’s a point to be made about how out-of-touch both the government and the public media apparatus are with the convictions of normal people regarding many things but this issue in particular.
The entire media landscape (Both private and especially the publicly funded media) is 100% aligned with the plans and goals of the government currently. When you compare the opinion, especially on gaza, of regular people to the overton window of opinions that are platformed and reproduced in TV Talkshows, Newspapers and Online channels, I feel like there’s a huge disparity between them. I think it’s fair to say that even beyond personal anecdotal experience, the public opinion sways heavily towards supporting palestine or at least condemning israel while the media and ALL political parties (Yes also the PdL) support the zionist cause, some more blatantly and some less.
That’s not to say that the average german citizen doesn’t have some truly insane opinions on many issues but supporting the genocide perpetrated by israel does make you an outlier across the political spectrum among normal people who don’t spend their lives in elitist circles of politics or media outlets. At least that’s my impression, please do correct me if you think that’s wrong
They are brainwashed by their government but also refuse to undo that brainwashing. This comm exists because the feddit.org (German one) banned me for calling the German government Nazis for supplying weapons to a genocide. Even most of the “left” Germans who know what Israel is doing have ingrained racism so much that they are offended more by semantics than the actions of their Nazi government.
The average German leftist doesn’t tolerate any non Germans even talking about genocide, in their opinion, that should be left to the experts.
Well, nazi has a meaning and the german government is not a national socialist one; it’s a liberal democracy like many others (Not to imply that that’s a good thing). They’ve learned their lesson from WW2 and are very much opposed to the idea of a “German special path”. Instead they focus on the EU and “the west” as a whole as a global superpower. I think this is actually one of the main points of contention that the established political parties have with the AfD.
To be fair that’s probably not the reason feddit banned you when you said that. I’ve also noticed that many german online spaces are completely deranged politically and very aligned with what the government and media propagate. I don’t know if those people on reddit, feddit or some german lemmy dot world spaces are representative of regular people though; in my experience most people you meet outside who aren’t hardline state loyal liberals are quite open to critique directed at israel.
Additionally, I think “Left” is kind of a vague term because in my experience everyone and their mom identifies themselves as “left wing” or “left leaning” from the center of the CDU all the way to the PdL. If you talk to communists though you will not hear many positive words about israel.
I uhhh don’t think that’s the lesson there was to be learned from WW2
Me neither. But that’s one of the main lessons that the government (Which I am opposed to for the record) seems to have taken away from it. When I say “This is how it is” I obviously am not saying “This is good” or “This is justified and reasonable”. I’m simply trying to describe reality as I see it. If you think my assessment is wrong then please let me hear your perspective but don’t assume that just because I describe something I must also be supportive of that thing being the way it is.
Who voted for pro israel politician?
This is a simplified and in my opinion dishonest take, because the anti israel position was never on the ballot to begin with. Supporting israel is literally part of the self prescribed raison d’être of the state apparatus.
Similarly to how changing the economic modus operandi (capitalism) has never and will never be subject of a democratic vote
Yeah a self proclaimed role of raison d’être basically not a law. No politicians are forced to follow it. Also you know who vote for weapons to israel and who doesn’t , it doesn’t need to be in the ballot to not vote for those
If it isn’t on the ballot then it is impossible to vote for an alternative. If you’re saying the people simply should have abstained from the election then I can follow that logic but you have to consider the immense pressure enacted by society and the media to put your cross on the ballot next to ANY party that sort of resembles your convictions or whom you consider to be the “least bad” option (“Not voting is a vote for the afd” or “not voting is a vote for Donald Trump” in the usa are very common sentiments). It’s a little unrealistic to expect all these people to simply stay home instead of going to the polls and inevitably voting for one of the parties, all of which are pro israel without exception
Always making excuses. By voting for people backing genocide you support genocide simple as that. Vote for the minority who do not support genocide.The hyou guys always blame people instead of your politicians if the afd wins it mean that the other parties did a terrbiel job of not listening to people, morality and international law
My intention is not to “make excuses” I’m simply trying to explain what’s happening lol. I’m totally with you about abstaining or voting for an irrelevant small party if you disagree with the things offered by the big parties. Though I don’t believe that changes anything of what I said about why people voted for the big parties that tend to reach over 5% and how there’s a pressure to vote for one of those. And among those “acceptable” large political parties that we are offered, there simply is no non-zionist option.
The average voter might say something like “I don’t agree with all that stuff about israel but otherwise I believe they’re the best option and not voting just strengthens the AfD!” and that’s exactly how the system has always been supposed to work and how it’s always worked in the past. People go to the polls with clenched teeth, vote for the fuckers who they think will do the least harm KNOWING that most of their campaign promises are bullshit and that they’re just looking after themselves etc. etc. but people still do it “to prevent the worst”. I’m not trying to justify this or make excuses but is that not how things are in reality? Isn’t this something to blame on the system that’s in place rather than the people participating in it by doing their “democratic duty” of voting for one of the offered political programs every 4 years?
Edit: I think you edited your comment to add “[…]you guys always blame people instead of your politicians” and I agree with that! You initially wrote “Who voted for pro israel politician?” which I interpreted as you blaming the people who participated in the election (Since there is no major party that isn’t pro-israel). All I’ve been trying to argue is exactly that you should blame the systems and politicians instead of the people. We agree with each other!
Big parties are big because the majority of the population decided to make them big, if people decide to all vote for a small party then the small parry will be the big party. I don’t care if
Genocide is the mother of all crimes and israel is doing the worse form total extermination from the land , this should be the biggest worry and the most important thing to stop
Many population put their body in the front to stop and overthrow authoritarian regime , you have zero excuse to not try to change the system.
That’s true (Although most of these big parties were already “the big parties” when me, my parents AND my grandparents were born so it’s debatable if “the people” really decided to “make them big”), but if you make a political party that actually calls the genocide what it is and takes a principled stance on israel then you will be cancelled and targeted by an enormous media propaganda apparatus as well as the state and its law enforcement agencies. We can already see people being arrested, sanctioned, fired from their jobs and intimidated by law enforcement for simply attending the wrong protests, voicing the wrong opinions (both online and irl) or reporting on the genocide in the wrong way. There is no reason to expect this reaction to be any milder if you were to create a political party that gains momentum. Similarly to founding a party that actually genuinely demands a different mode of production (i. e. socialism). And with all this we’re not even at the point where that party is anywhere near being in government and actually having to manage this nation-state according to the myriad of systems and rules engrained in it to ensure the status quo is being kept up regardless of the personell holding office in it.
This kind of defeats your point about voting in my opinion. I am not trying to justify the governments support of israel, nor am I trying to “excuse” individuals who vote for these parties. I’m trying to tell you that solving these issues requires a critique of the system itself because there are some issues, like gaza or for example capitalism itself, which are simply not up for debate in this liberal democracy. Which brings me to the next thing you wrote:
This is a wildly different approach compared to the discussion we’ve had here about voting for some political party in the elections. I don’t disagree with you on this
Edit: If you’re interested in a more detailled (and better articulated) critique of this democratic process and its limitations I can wholeheartedly recommend Peter Decker’s book/essay collection “Demokratie: Die perfekte Form bürgerlicher Herrschaft”. If you don’t want to read 200 pages off a stranger’s recommendation this lecture about the book is also very informative.
Well you can condemn your government and its supporters as the Nazi monsters they are and do what you can to organise to defeat them, same as the rest of us living in genocidal Western hellstates, really.
I know. The problem is always the government anyway. That’s exactly why the majority of Germans are so frustrated.