Greetings!
A friend of mine wants to be more secure and private in light of recent events in the USA.
They originally told me they were going to use telegram, in which I explained how Telegram is considered compromised, and Signal is far more secure to use.
But they want more detailed explanations then what I provided verbally. Please help me explain things better to them! ✨
I am going to forward this thread to them, so they can see all your responses! And if you can, please cite!
Thank you! ✨
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In my view, by far the biggest reason to switch is that Telegram doesn’t end-to-end encrypt chats by default.
Yes you can start encrypted chats specifically, but i’ll bet 99% of chats on telegram aren’t encrypted - meaning whoever has access to the telegram servers can read all the messages.
Signal claims to end-to-end encrypt all chats by default, and if you want to be 100% sure you can in theory read the source code and compile the app yourself. this means signal cannot read any of your messages, even if police asks them to or servers get seized. That’s a massive advantage in privacy.
While there may be better options out there, from a purely security standpoint.
The real world, with non-tech people needs solutions that are easy, fast and as close to foolproof as possible.
I choose Signal, because my mum, my sisters and brothers (none of which are tech people) can all go to their app stores and install Signal, it works and it is easy. Signal is private BY DEFAULT, I don’t have to remind them to turn on security for each chat, there is voice and video chat for individuals and groups, I can use it to send files. It is really good. Secure communication is their primary goal.
I have been using Signal since it was called TextSecure and I only had one contact using it.
Yes it sucked when they dropped SMS support; but these days about 98% of my messaging goes through Signal. Any SMS is usually from my doctor/dentist/bank.
I never really trusted Telegram, too many compromises. Secure communication is not their primary goal.
All big 3, Signal Telegram SimpleX, are just go to app store install, and send invite to contacts. SimpleX gets framed as technical and dissuades new users from installing, while it’s just as easy as the other 2.
Maybe, but I have had all of my family on Signal for close to 9 years now. Inertia and the network effect is a big part of why platforms stay around.
It took me saying to my mum, that I would ONLY share pictures of her new grandson on Signal to get her to install it. Once mum was on board, the rest followed pretty quickly.
The thought of getting mum to install a new messaging app now, and she is nearly 10 years older. Well it isn’t worth the effort. My threat threat model is low enough, to choose the convenience/security slider at Signal.
As a side note, every month or two; another of my contacts shows up on Signal. I have around 50 contacts using Signal now, as I said before around 98% of my messaging is through Signal.
Hmmm the Signal users sure like it, will have to take off my tinfoil data hat and give it a try
I was sold on threats and coersion. Lets do more of that
Signal tells me which contacts in my contacts list has Signal. It also alerts me when someone in my contacts installs Signal.
I believe Telegram also does that.
SimpleX does not.
Let me start saying that for convenience I adopted Signal. Now, this argument that it validates your contacts is actually something that isn’t the best feature of Signal since it implies that it is requesting and having access to phone numbers.
I don’t let my number available as my contact, I created the ID and I’m using it in case someone wants to connect with me but that probably isn’t something that everyone is practicing and the fact that they retain my number it doesn’t digest well.
I’m not sure how is SimpleX nowadays but features like stickers and even some emoticons or message reactions were not possible. Family members and friends would be very difficult to persuade to go back to a very simplistic communication app.
I always keep an eye in alternatives and if usability reaches a good point we may need to consider SimpleX as the messenger for the mainstream recommendation.
If they haven’t already, SimpleX registers a URI handler, you could put an ID in a vCard just like your contacts on XMPP show up in a messaging client.
They reason this happens more often with Signal is a) Signal requires a phone number (which is not good for your privacy) b) your contact is more likely to put in their phone number but many forget to add other IM protocols to their vCard & the default contact managers do not make this very discoverable.
The age ol convenience vs privacy. But fair that is user friendly
The real world, with non-tech people needs solutions that are easy, fast and as close to foolproof as possible.
Nope. Grandma gets a smartphone
Meaning they are hopeless and it’s impossible for them to emulate a techie.
It’s a fools errand.
Just stop trying to pretend Grandma is something more than completely unimportant and forgettable and hopeless and more likely than not merely a pest.
I’m so tired of entertaining Grandmas.
Telegram doesn’t even encrypt group chats. And it doesn’t encrypt private convos by default.
Get what you are trying to say but both are still encrypted. They simply aren’t end to end encrypted. So the messages are private. Until obviously the company servers get hacked or police raided and the keys to the encryption get stolen. You are protected against this in E2E encryption. True.
Ii guess telegram once was the alternative to whatsapp, then made maany more featutes abailable in fast time paces which led to another bunch of migrators.
Now noone wants to move away because why? For the usual end user there is no negative to them.
I am fully on your side and am using signal and matrix and try to migrate as many people as possible but its hard.
Why use two different apps? I only use Signal, and have gotten so many friends, coworkers, and family to use Signal.
Then talk about coding. Non-techies curl up into a ball and die slightly inside as they run for the exits.
Highest form of encryption possible.
Try it
And if that is not enough to kill someones spirit and make them beg for mercy, recite random sections of the GNU Make documentation out of context and watch them go into convolutions.
Wat.jpg
I can’t speak about telegram, but signal is absolutely not secure to use. Its a US-based service (that must adhere to NSLs), and requires phone numbers (meaning your real identity in the US).
Matrix, XMPP, or SimpleX are all decentralized, and don’t require US hosting.
This entire article is guessing at hypothetical backdoors. Its like saying that AES is backdoored because the US government chose it as the standard defacto symmetrical encryption.
There is no proof that Signal has done anything nefarious at all.
This entire article is guessing at hypothetical backdoors. Its like saying that AES is backdoored because the US government chose it as the standard defacto symmetrical encryption.
There is no proof that Signal has done anything nefarious at all.
As an outsider, I mean isn’t that the same for news coverage for chinese/russian backdoors, but everyone believes it without any proof.
Why is US company being a US honeypot a big surprise, and its government recommending it not a big red flag? but it is when China recommends wechat? Can’t we be critical and suspicious of both authoritarian countries?
Do you have access to Signal servers to verify your claims by any chance? Afaik their servers are running modified codebase, and third party apps cannot use them. So how do you claim anything that goes behind closed doors at all? Genuinel curious.
Being critical is good, and we should always hold them accountable for our security. We can look to third party audits for help with that.
https://community.signalusers.org/t/overview-of-third-party-security-audits/13243
Do you have access to Signal servers to verify your claims by any chance?
That’s not how it works. The signal protocol is designed in a way that the server can’t have access to your message contents if the client encrypts them properly. You’re supposed to assume the server might be compromised at any time. The parts you actually need to verify for safe communication are:
- the code running on your device
- the public key of your intended recipient
There was also no proof that a ton of US companies were spying on their users, until the global surveillance disclosures. Crypto AG ran a honeypot that spied on communications between world leaders for > 40 years until it got exposed.
Right but Signal has been audited by various security firms throughout its lifetime, and each time they generally report back that this messenger has encryption locked down properly.
Thank you for your post!
I want you to know your effort and knowledge is appreciated, this will help future readers make better decisions.✨
But the situation stands that my friend and their friends are not as technologically literate as we are, and I would rather have them on something easy and secured than unsecured at all, especially from my experience with getting communities to use such decentralized platforms you mentioned.
Matrix is no more difficult to sign up on than signal, and they don’t forward your information to the US government.
I am not uneducated in this matter, I run Matrix instances and have dabbled in development of tools around it.
Perhaps our experience is different, but I have had great difficulty in helping groups on the ground to use Matrix.
Regardless of our agreement that Matrix is better than Signal, it should not cloud our judgement in at least reducing the harm that is Telegram.
In the future we can keep joining hands to work towards a better future, but for now I hope you can understand my perspective and choice.
Matrix is centralized around Matrix.org or servers they run tho. Since the protocol is a big data/metadata sync by design & medium–large-sized servers are expensive to run, almost all of metadata is with Matrix.org—of which was originally funded my Israeli intelligence & I wouldn’t be surprised if they were getting data out of it to this day.
So if I understand it Signal has your phone number but only logs sign up date and last activity date. So yes they can say this person has Signal and last used it on date X. Other than that no information.
Matrix doesn’t require a phone number but has no standard on logging activity so it’s up to the server admin what they log, and they could retain ip address, what users are talking in what, rooms, etc. and E2EE is not required.
I think both have different approaches. I’m just trying to understand. On one hand you have centralized system that has a standard to minimize logs or decentralized system that must be configured to use E2EE and to remove logs.
They have your phone number (meaning your full identity, and even current address), and as the primary identifier, it means they have message timestamps and social graphs.
Its impossible to verify what code their server is running. Or that they delete their logs, because they say they do? You should never rely on someone saying “just trust us”. Truly secure systems have much harder verifiability tests to pass.
As you say yourself (cryptocraphic nerd here):
Signal’s E2EE protocol means that, most likely, message content between persons is secure.
So a shame there are no free servers, are the server soft not open source, only the signal app itself?
The server is supposedly open source, but they did anger the open source community a few years back, by going a whole year without posting any code updates. Either way that’s not reliable, because signal isn’t self-hostable, so you have no idea what code the server is running. Never rely on someone saying “just trust us.”
I have read that it is self hostable (but I haven’t digged into it) but as it’s not a federating service so not better than other alternative out there.
Also read that the keys are stored locally but also somehow stored in the cloud (??), which makes it all completely worthless if it is true.
That said, the three letter agencies can probably get in any android/apple phones if they want to, like I’m not forgetting the oh so convenient “bug” heartbleed…
Reding the link now " The reason the US government hasn’t tried to block or hinder Signal, is because it’s satisfied with the amount of information Signal can provide to it." Well the metadata of who is contacting who can be acquired by other means. CIA also like to have secure tools. Just like you can argue the CIA connection in the TOR case . It doesn’t mean backdoors and so on.
Centralisation argument sure, but that issue will always be there at some level, even for matrix.
Phonenumber discovarability argument is no longer correct as it is possible to use signal and not disclosing it to contacts, but yes still to signal.
I have a signal account with a fake number so that is an option as well, if even more work than matrix process.
You are right but
we like doing the wrong thing over and over again. And being surprised, each and every time, when it turns out to be wrong. Never picking up onto the repeating simple pattern.
1111111111111 what’s the next number … errrr Signal! That’s it you got it. Good job.
Embrace the idiocracy!
This is why Telegram is awesome.
Eventually you will come around and realize how hopeless humanity is and embrace that it is well beyond hope.
And then you will have a larger network and enjoy each and every one of them.
It really depends on who your friend is, and who they are trying to defenf against.
If the US ( or Russian / Chinese) government really wants to access an internet-connected device, they can do it; what app you are using doesn’t even matter. For example, most people use the default Google keyboard, which could be compromised.
If the concern is about local goons / employers / coworkers, then both Telegram and Signal are more than enough to stop them prying.
As for whether to use Signal or Telegram, Signal has end to end encryption enabled by default, while in Telegram you have to switch it on for each chat. On the other hand, Telegram has the best UI among messaging apps hands down.
Even if you switch to an offline keyboard, the new “ai” assistants in Windows, iOS, and Android? Can read your screen, microphone, and etc. I’m not really sure what you should use unless you use coded language. Even then, there’s just too much information about you out there anyway. Best bet would to be have conversations in private away from any electronic devices or use something like tails.
Pegasus really negates a lot of security too.
Telegram rolls their own crypto. That should be the biggest red flag by far. I say this as a telegram user
The encryption method they use was made up by them, and the chats aren’t even end to end encrypted by default. Which I would argue is a larger red flag.
This
1 + 1 = 2logic is boring. It’s trying to escape out of a wet paper bag over and over again. Whatever your1 + 1 = 2logic is their is another guy who can drive a bus staight thru it. Every single time.In a year from now you will find out you are completely mistaken and just repeating nonsense. Every freak’n time.
Just for once, do the wrong thing. Make the wrong choice on purpose.
Instead of seeing never ending red flags. Today see purple flags. And tomorrow orange. Cuz why do flags always have to be red?
You can be right or you can have fun.
Do the wrong thing sometimes. Live a little.
Hopefully you aren’t driving any buses while you’re this high.
It’s not never ending red flags. In fact, I see lots of green flags from signal. Telegram, though, that’s a different story.
i’m a milk tea addict. Carry around cinnamon and nutmeg. And hang out on github.
These are horrible vices. But no excuse for having divergent opinions.
Telegram is fine.
Signal will be gone tomorrow and you’ll lose your network. Moving networks from one platform to another is impossible. So we end up creating new networks.
Currently i’m making a network of Python coders i’ve collaborated with. The communication medium is not consistent nor ideal.
Hate email with a passion. So of course most the communication is going over plain text email. Tried pushing for communication on plain text mastodon.
Signal pretends not to.
I prefer Telegram’s honesty.
We are Telegram and we are here to help. And to make it more fun we will send all your communications to Russia for a change.
Oh man! Where do i sign up /nosarc
Telegram is not end to end encrypted. Repeating it’s not. Only private mode or something like that is.
Telegram for random public chatter/file storage(with password lock), talking to strangers without giving them your number. Signal for personal/private conversations.
Spread your data (encrypted or not) around, so a single entity doesn’t own your digital life. Your device can handle 2 apps and don’t give them permissions willy nilly. Geez, every one of these posts just wants to start a flame war.
In Telegram, you never have to expose your phone number. If you like walking into traps then of course you can.
But can make minimal efforts to not be a degenerate avoiding this obvious easily avoidable trap.
How to avoid exposing your phone number
Make a group called
i'm not a complete utter idiot. Whenever you have a friend wanting to connect, make a group link, send it to them, have them join. After joining have them send a message in the group. Just, “Hi”. Nothing more. Less is more.Look for that message and click on the person’s name. You are now connected. Send them a personal message, “Hi!”.
You can also add them as a contact without sharing your phone number.
Your friend will probably be a degenerate and expose their phone number. Teach them how to go into settings to always hide it.
Try not to call them a degenerate, degenerates hate that.
Also try not to think of them as a degenerate, they will already know that and be proud of it and not understand why you don’t share their enthusiasm.
So control what thoughts you project into the ether. If you have to change the topic in your mind to something involving flowers singing birds and clouds.
That’s a neat trick, thanks for sharing
Your welcome. Use it in good health. And please excuse my colorful prose.
There is many many comments on Telegram bleeding the phone number. And only one comment saying that doesn’t have to be the case.
If you have a safe, but cannot open it, do you own the contents inside? Signal has no way of accessing your data, I would argue they don’t own it.
There’s a lot of answers itt but heres a simpler one:
If you want to prevent people in power from having access to communications there are two methods employed, broadly speaking:
The first is to make a very secure, zero knowledge, zero trust, zero log system so that when the authorities come calling you can show them your empty hands and smirk.
Signal doesn’t actually do this, but they’re closer to this model than the second one I’m about to describe. Bear in mind they’re a us company so when the us authorities come to their door or authorities from some nation the us has a treaty with come to their door signal is legally required to comply and provide all the information they have.
The second is to simply not talk to the authorities. Telegram was closer to this model than signal, using a bunch of different servers in nations with wildly different extradition and information sharing mechanisms in order to make forcing them to comply with some order Byzantine to the point of not being worth it.
Eventually the powers that be got their shit together and put hands on telegrams owner so now they’re complying with all lawful orders and a comparison of the tech is how you’d pick one.
The technology behind the two doesn’t matter really but default telegram is less “secure” than default imessage (I was talking with someone about it so it’s on the old noggin’).
I really like this explanation. Not many are aware of how telegram was designed to make it as cumbersome for authorities as possible by splitting their data across different nations.
I’m not an expert but I’ll use this analogy.
Signal is you meeting a person who gives you secure devices. This person then can only ever provide the following information to someone else. From Signal website. “The phone number. the date and time a user registered with Signal and the last date of a user’s connectivity to the Signal service.” Only your device and your friends device can read the messages. It goes direct from you to them. The only way to read any message is having the device.
Telegram is like you making an agreement with another person. By default messages are encrypted but go to the other person for decryption before going to your friends device. This other person Telegram has and will give the phone number, messages, serverlogs, dates to legal entities by request. Now there is an option to bypass this person by using “secret chats” . This will make it so the message is directly from your device to their device. Telegram can’t read messages but as I understand they can still potentially have metadata, server logs of when messages are sent, how many, what device they are sent from. Bottomline is they have activity logs Signal can only provide the date you signed up and the last time you used the app. Not only that but just being on the Telegram platform which allows bots makes you a target. Bots will contact you like spam. Sending you harmful links, etc.
Almost every security person I’ve ever read says. “I use Signal”. Why wouldn’t you go with the service that by default has end to end encryption? Telegram makes it a option you have to select for each person. Both use your phone number.
These are very basic descriptions. I’m Happy to remove or update if I got anything wrong.
The fact that telegram operates in a country that scores 18/100 on global freedom and 30/100 on internet freedom.
Use signal and matrix. Telegram is as people pointed out usually unencrypted. Also unverifieble in its code . Signal is easy uses but phonenumbers ( you can register a fake one however) but always EE2E. Matrix does not require a number at all. But definatly is a bit harder to get started with and are therefore harder to get your contact to use it.
If we care about the planet & sustainability, we would not be recommending a eventual-consistency model for chat communications. Matrix’s protocol is so wasteful & expensive.
Signal needs a phone number.
I don’t want to give them one. Also I don’t have one.
Oh my, that seems to eliminate Signal as an option.
Next?
Same with telegram though
Apparently Signal still requires it, though you no longer must reveal it to others.
Wired last year: Signal Finally Rolls Out Usernames, So You Can Keep Your Phone Number Private
Those features, which WIRED has tested, are designed to allow users to conceal their phone numbers as they communicate on the app and instead share a username as a less-sensitive method of connecting with one another.
Whittaker says that, for better or worse, a phone number remains a necessary requisite as the identifier Signal privately collects from its users.
Apparently I still don’t have one. Haven’t had a phone number for about a decade. No SMS spam, no “survey” calls; nothing.
You don’t have to learn Morse code.
