A Ukrainian drone struck a civilian bus on the Krasnodar-Melitopol route in Zaporozhye Region, with all 11 people aboard escaping unharmed, officials say
And let’s push the argument then. There are nazis in Ukraine, so the country deserves to be invaded. There are nazis all throughout Europe (actually a big current problem), so Putin should invade all of Europe, possibly the whole world.
The neonazis in Ukraine were both in positions of power and engaged in the beginning of a genocide against ethnic Russians living in Ukraine. That’s not quite the same as there just being neonazi street gangs or something.
There’s people in powerful positions making nazi salutes in front of crowds. There’s governments doing a minute of silence to honour a nazi terrorist that died while attempting an attack. There’s most of the western world supporting a genocidal Israel. Even if what you said was true, it goes with a general trend and is unrelated to Ukraine. The question remains, why Ukraine and not a more influential country first?
And again, even assuming that what you said is true… Do you really, actually believe that this would be fighting against the nazis, not just fighting exclusively for the interest of Russian people? If those alleged nazi Ukrainians were killing Americans instead of Russians, Russia would do the same? It’s all about personal gain, there is nothing about fighting fascism here.
The question remains, why Ukraine and not a more influential country first?
Ukraine is literally right next door, and was in the process of starting a genocide on Russia’s border. That’s significant.
And again, even assuming that what you said is true… Do you really, actually believe that this would be fighting against the nazis, not just fighting exclusively for the interest of Russian people? If those alleged nazi Ukrainians were killing Americans instead of Russians, Russia would do the same? It’s all about personal gain, there is nothing about fighting fascism here.
It’s both, nations always act in their own interests. It’s not a charity.
But do you believe Russia should have just stood idly by and let a genocide against ethnic Russians happen? Do you think they even could? Their own people demanded action, they had families in Ukraine that were in danger and needed Russian support.
There’s most of the western world supporting a genocidal Israel.
Worth noting, Russia is supporting Iran in their struggle against a genocidal Israel.
What about the soldiers that it keeps on sending to their deaths, that are much more numerous than whatever “genocide” Ukraine could have been doing from their border?
What about the people sent to forced labor in jail for doing nothing else than voice a slight critic of Putin, and that then get sent to the frontlines?
You can bullshit whatever you want about Russia, saying that it cares about its own people is bullshit. And even if they did, being fine invading countries to “protect your own people” is a very typically fascist thing, and the nazis were fond of this idea for example.
Russia is supporting Iran against Israel? Then why not support Palestine, who needs support even more, and from long before? Seems like they don’t care so much about nazis, just about what geopolitical conflict they can profit from.
Russia isn’t some bastion of goodness or something. They have many internal contradictions that need to be resolved before they get my uncritical support. I merely see them as the lesser evil in this conflict, because they are opposed to the US empire.
They follow the same morals as the “US empire” though.
Also, it’s circular reasoning. You believe that Russia is right according to Russian sources that don’t seem very coherent, because you believe that Russia is right. I have yet to find any convincing evidence of Ukraine being a nazi country, and as the one that started the attack, the charge of the proof falls onto Russia. I have seen the “proof” they were using at the beginning of the invasion, and it was absolutely not convincing, it was some cherrypicking of obsolete links that didn’t mean much anymore. And after that, most of the justifications used were sounding like Trump’s justifications to attack random countries. Ironically enough, the US and Russia are very similar.
For me I believe in only supporting moral stuff, and I’m not going to defend an oppressive fascist dictatorship, even if they are attacking other fascists. And in this case, the second part is yet to prove.
Supporting the lesser evil is also what led to all current democracies falling into fascism and discrimination. If you take a look at France, Macron has been seen as the lesser evil, and has been consistently and successfully popularizing and supporting the far right. The lesser evil is still evil.
I believe Russia is right not just according to Russian sources, but from my understanding of empire. The US is usually on the wrong side of every conflict with only a couple notable exceptions that happened before my parents were even born, I see no reason to assume this is any different. It’s that momentum of history plus non-Western sources that convinced me.
And I’m certainly not going to convince you, we’ve both made up our minds, but we weren’t talking about that.
We were assuming what I’m saying is true i.e. that Russia is intervening to stop the Banderite NATO puppet regime from enacting a genocide of ethnic Russians. If we assume that is true, then Russia must be supported in this specific conflict even if they’re still reactionary on many fronts and still a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. Do you disagree?
The US being wrong does not make its enemies right. I don’t think that right now, in the current way the world is, there is much of a “good side” because most countries are doing horrible shit. If you start going for the lesser evil, you accept that as the new norm and it continues worsening.
Yes, I do disagree. Because even if it were to be true, Russia is still doing things in the worst possible way. Ukraine is having nazis? Then influence their elections (which Russia loves to do) to make them shift away from it. Find economic or political leverage to pressure them. Setup rescue operations or diplomatic passage for the potential victims. But steamrolling the whole country, killing basically everyone you can on your way? I’m sorry, that’s not how it works.
If Ukraine is made of nazis, then the nazis must be taken care of, yes. But what Russia is then doing (assuming that what you’ve been saying were to be true), is the equivalent of the US dropping a bunch of nuclear bombs on a Japan at the brink of surrender, or of the winners of WWI dismantling Germany to “punish” it for its leadership, or of Israel trying to conquer and destroy all the countries around it that it doesn’t like. Or even, of all those western countries that use the excuse of counter-terrorism to consider every individual a potential threat that deserves death. It’s an oppressor move, and these cannot be supported.
A powerful country like Russia has many ways to solve any conflict or problem, and if they pick the violent, oppressive, indiscriminate way, then they are wrong.
The US being on the wrong side of every conflict is a pretty good reason to think it’s on the wrong side of this one, too. The US needs to be defeated. Besides, we can’t fight the whole world at once.
And it was already far too late to rely on influencing elections (and it’s not like Russia is uncontested - do you think the US doesn’t influence elections? ) because Ukraine was already at war with separatists in the Donbas. Russia intervened because the war was already ongoing, their options were either to invade or open the borders to refugees (and that would have caused a lot of other problems that Russia couldn’t handle). Ukraine didn’t just have neonazis. They were in the government, passing nazi policies, doing nazi things.
The equivalent would be if Mexico attacked the US for ICE putting people in concentration camps and gunning them down in the streets.
The neonazis in Ukraine were both in positions of power and engaged in the beginning of a genocide against ethnic Russians living in Ukraine. That’s not quite the same as there just being neonazi street gangs or something.
There’s people in powerful positions making nazi salutes in front of crowds. There’s governments doing a minute of silence to honour a nazi terrorist that died while attempting an attack. There’s most of the western world supporting a genocidal Israel. Even if what you said was true, it goes with a general trend and is unrelated to Ukraine. The question remains, why Ukraine and not a more influential country first?
And again, even assuming that what you said is true… Do you really, actually believe that this would be fighting against the nazis, not just fighting exclusively for the interest of Russian people? If those alleged nazi Ukrainians were killing Americans instead of Russians, Russia would do the same? It’s all about personal gain, there is nothing about fighting fascism here.
Ukraine is literally right next door, and was in the process of starting a genocide on Russia’s border. That’s significant.
It’s both, nations always act in their own interests. It’s not a charity.
But do you believe Russia should have just stood idly by and let a genocide against ethnic Russians happen? Do you think they even could? Their own people demanded action, they had families in Ukraine that were in danger and needed Russian support.
Worth noting, Russia is supporting Iran in their struggle against a genocidal Israel.
So Russia loves its “own people” so much, fine.
What about LGBT people that it hunts down?
What about political opponents that it murders?
What about the soldiers that it keeps on sending to their deaths, that are much more numerous than whatever “genocide” Ukraine could have been doing from their border?
What about the people sent to forced labor in jail for doing nothing else than voice a slight critic of Putin, and that then get sent to the frontlines?
You can bullshit whatever you want about Russia, saying that it cares about its own people is bullshit. And even if they did, being fine invading countries to “protect your own people” is a very typically fascist thing, and the nazis were fond of this idea for example.
Russia is supporting Iran against Israel? Then why not support Palestine, who needs support even more, and from long before? Seems like they don’t care so much about nazis, just about what geopolitical conflict they can profit from.
Russia isn’t some bastion of goodness or something. They have many internal contradictions that need to be resolved before they get my uncritical support. I merely see them as the lesser evil in this conflict, because they are opposed to the US empire.
Don’t you believe in supporting the lesser evil?
They follow the same morals as the “US empire” though.
Also, it’s circular reasoning. You believe that Russia is right according to Russian sources that don’t seem very coherent, because you believe that Russia is right. I have yet to find any convincing evidence of Ukraine being a nazi country, and as the one that started the attack, the charge of the proof falls onto Russia. I have seen the “proof” they were using at the beginning of the invasion, and it was absolutely not convincing, it was some cherrypicking of obsolete links that didn’t mean much anymore. And after that, most of the justifications used were sounding like Trump’s justifications to attack random countries. Ironically enough, the US and Russia are very similar.
For me I believe in only supporting moral stuff, and I’m not going to defend an oppressive fascist dictatorship, even if they are attacking other fascists. And in this case, the second part is yet to prove.
Supporting the lesser evil is also what led to all current democracies falling into fascism and discrimination. If you take a look at France, Macron has been seen as the lesser evil, and has been consistently and successfully popularizing and supporting the far right. The lesser evil is still evil.
I believe Russia is right not just according to Russian sources, but from my understanding of empire. The US is usually on the wrong side of every conflict with only a couple notable exceptions that happened before my parents were even born, I see no reason to assume this is any different. It’s that momentum of history plus non-Western sources that convinced me.
And I’m certainly not going to convince you, we’ve both made up our minds, but we weren’t talking about that.
We were assuming what I’m saying is true i.e. that Russia is intervening to stop the Banderite NATO puppet regime from enacting a genocide of ethnic Russians. If we assume that is true, then Russia must be supported in this specific conflict even if they’re still reactionary on many fronts and still a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. Do you disagree?
The US being wrong does not make its enemies right. I don’t think that right now, in the current way the world is, there is much of a “good side” because most countries are doing horrible shit. If you start going for the lesser evil, you accept that as the new norm and it continues worsening.
Yes, I do disagree. Because even if it were to be true, Russia is still doing things in the worst possible way. Ukraine is having nazis? Then influence their elections (which Russia loves to do) to make them shift away from it. Find economic or political leverage to pressure them. Setup rescue operations or diplomatic passage for the potential victims. But steamrolling the whole country, killing basically everyone you can on your way? I’m sorry, that’s not how it works.
If Ukraine is made of nazis, then the nazis must be taken care of, yes. But what Russia is then doing (assuming that what you’ve been saying were to be true), is the equivalent of the US dropping a bunch of nuclear bombs on a Japan at the brink of surrender, or of the winners of WWI dismantling Germany to “punish” it for its leadership, or of Israel trying to conquer and destroy all the countries around it that it doesn’t like. Or even, of all those western countries that use the excuse of counter-terrorism to consider every individual a potential threat that deserves death. It’s an oppressor move, and these cannot be supported.
A powerful country like Russia has many ways to solve any conflict or problem, and if they pick the violent, oppressive, indiscriminate way, then they are wrong.
The US being on the wrong side of every conflict is a pretty good reason to think it’s on the wrong side of this one, too. The US needs to be defeated. Besides, we can’t fight the whole world at once.
And it was already far too late to rely on influencing elections (and it’s not like Russia is uncontested - do you think the US doesn’t influence elections? ) because Ukraine was already at war with separatists in the Donbas. Russia intervened because the war was already ongoing, their options were either to invade or open the borders to refugees (and that would have caused a lot of other problems that Russia couldn’t handle). Ukraine didn’t just have neonazis. They were in the government, passing nazi policies, doing nazi things.
The equivalent would be if Mexico attacked the US for ICE putting people in concentration camps and gunning them down in the streets.